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:Alan Cox -- Bruce Weiner: Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics
Alan Cox -- Bruce Weiner: Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics
May 5, 1999, 07 :43 UTC (97 Talkback[s]) (23677 reads)

(Other stories by Alan Cox)

by Alan Cox

"Mindcraft did conduct a second test with support from.."

They (or rather he as it appears to be) _refused_ us access to the system. I have basically given up on Mindcraft's Microsoft funded pranks.

The careful use of the word "support" to imply we somehow validate his test is misleading. I sent him about four emails.

Only on May 4th did he offer any kind of open testing. The response I sent him was very simple

> I think I would prefer to see an open benchmark done on your
> configuration and test plan by an alternative testing body. That
> would also be better for all parties.

I think I speak for much of the community in feeling that. No such test has yet occurred. I have no faith that Mindcraft can or would deliver an accurate assesment of the general question of Linux v NT performance.

File Server Performance
-----------------------

I would also invite Mindcraft to publish the Windows NT client numbers using NTfs. That is the equivalent benchmark to using Linux where you also have file permissions and multiple timestamping on files. Perhaps Mr Weiner has conveniently forgotten that Windows 98 is supposed to be the end of the line and Windows 2000/NT5, an NT based product is the future according to the MS roadmap.

Bruce says that "Mindcraft verified the clients were set up as we documented". I do not believe anyone can verify an OS client was set up as documented by a company engineer. This comment implies that Mindcraft did not set up the client machines themselves. I would hope they followed basic test quality considerations and set the client machines up using install disks bought at a random computer shop and that no third party engineer was able to access the test site except under supervision. Who did set the client machines up ? Because Bruce refused us access we don't know.

Bruce Weiner says that Jeremy reported he duplicated the NT server numbers in their lab. Jeremy also could not reproduce the abysmal numbers Mindcraft got from their Linux box.

"The only reason to use Windows NT clients is to give Linux and Samba an advantage"

Using NT clients is a more accurate measurement. Using NTfs would also be more accurate. The file systems then are equivalent in feature sets. It is also rather easier to tune a FAT file system to put the files and blocks in perfect order for a test. I'd thus want to be sure that the files were unpacked with a standard open source tool on a newly formatted partition on each machine so we can be sure nobody used any kind of fs optimiser on either the NT or Linux box.

I could equally say

"The only reason to use Windows 98 clients its to give NT an advantage".

In fact since Microsoft supply both products in this case it is a much more reasonable statement.

So why don't they include NTfs benchmarks. I can only guess that Bruce's statement answers that in full, as well as telling a whole story

"...why the company that sponsored a comparative benchmark always came out on top. The answer is simple. When that was not the case our client exercised a clause in the contract allowing them to refuse use the right to publish the results. We've had several such cases"

Flaws In Test Analysis
----------------------

If Mr Weiner wants to get accurate OS assesments for for web performance he should run Zeus. Last time I checked Zeus was the fastest Linux web server, and IIS seems to be the fastest NT web server. Linux + Zeus also appeared to be cheaper than NT Server (including IIS). He acknowledges that Apache is not the fastest web server for Linux, yet he did not choose to use the obvious product for the testing.

He claims

"We showed that Windows NT server was faster than Linux"

He states

"None of the Unix benchmark results reported at SPEC use Apache"

Why then did he use Apache. He may be measuring Apache v IIS speed but he is not measuring Linux v NT speed, and he knows it.

He claims

"We showed that NT server was faster than Linux"

He states

"Mindcraft used a MegaRAID controller with a beta driver... PC Week server used an eXtremeRAID controller with a fully released driver. The MegaRAID driver was single threaded while the eXtremeRAID driver was multi-threaded"

By his own admission he is benchmarking an incomplete test driver and claiming that it proves NT server is faster than Linux.

I would like to see an honest truely open benchmark using the best tools for each platform and showing the areas where each one wins. I am sure there are some things NT is good for (the cynical response of BSOD aside). Only an open benchmark by a good responsible and trusted third party can provide the information users need and have a right to know when selecting the right OS product for a job.

End users have a right to honest open benchmarks they can trust when selecting a product. It is sad that the prospect of an open choice seems to scare some large vendors.


Index Mode   |   Flat Mode   |   Thread Mode   |   Thread Flat  
  Talkback(s) Name  and Date
I think it has been adequately proven by ...   It's obvious now..   
K. Fisher
May 5, 1999, 08:10:58
 
I agree 99% with what Alan says in this  ...   NT Clients the norm?   
Lamar Owen
May 5, 1999, 08:18:27
 
It would be highly inappropriate for the ...   Re: It's obvious now..   
Alan Cox
May 5, 1999, 08:29:03
 
Yes, I think it would be the norm for an ...   Re: NT Clients the norm?   
Randy
May 5, 1999, 08:41:44
 
I agree 99% with what Alan says in this  ...   RE: NT Clients the norm?   
michael lea
May 5, 1999, 08:42:29
 
>I agree 99% with what Alan says in this ...   Re: NT Clients the norm? Yes, they are!   
Tet
May 5, 1999, 08:46:57
 
From what I have seen - even with my min ...   still sounds like a trap..   
Aaron Trevena
May 5, 1999, 09:00:29
 
Instead of comparing Linux and NT on the ...   Benchmark Suggestion   
Kyle Sparger
May 5, 1999, 09:05:58
 
It's very hard to get an unbiased be ...   Re: Benchmark Suggestion   
Jason
May 5, 1999, 09:29:10
 
I have yet to work in an enterprise-size ...   NT clients? hell yes!   
Ash
May 5, 1999, 09:32:08
 
Well, if Mindcraft insists on using Win9 ...   fs/client selection   
Thomas Pfau
May 5, 1999, 09:39:09
 
If you are doing a price/performance ben ...   Re: Re: Benchmark Suggestion   
James Henstridge
May 5, 1999, 10:05:17
 
Yes, it's very difficult to create a ...   Re: Re: Benchmark Suggestion   
Kyle Sparger
May 5, 1999, 10:08:20
 
The best idea posted involves comparing  ...   Equal money great idea....   
dinotrac
May 5, 1999, 10:17:04
 
According to the MC web site:
 "The RAID ...   Mindcraft DID use NTFS!!   
Mike McMahon
May 5, 1999, 11:21:18
 
Just my $.02 worth.

I work on the Un*x  ...   Re: NT Clients the norm? Yes, they are!   
Mike Rasmusson
May 5, 1999, 11:30:00
 
	To use a colloquialism, Mindcraft have  ...   Re: It's obvious now..   
Sid Boyce
May 5, 1999, 11:44:21
 
Let me start with saying that I am not a ...   Why so much unbelief ?   
Roy Varghese
May 5, 1999, 12:53:05
 
Having considered MS track record of cre ...   Re: Why so much unbelief ?   
Prasad Samarajiva
May 5, 1999, 13:45:44
 
Can somone help my understanding here? I ...   Re: Mindcraft DID use NTFS!!   
chevy
May 5, 1999, 13:56:59
 
> quality varies from good to drastic".  ...   Re:Subject: Why so much unbelief ?   
Swaps
May 5, 1999, 14:03:50
 
As Alan said, Win9x is supposed to be he ...   Re: NT Clients the norm?   
Kris
May 5, 1999, 14:47:00
 
One of the main reasons I saw to discred ...   Re: Why so much unbelief ?   
Kris
May 5, 1999, 14:57:04
 
Why not invite several of the major PC m ...   M/S vs Linux Server Comp   
Dave Wilson
May 5, 1999, 16:00:39
 
There are four main concerns I've he ...   Would this be a fair trial...   
William Night
May 5, 1999, 16:55:29
 
As long as linux stays FFFRRREEE ,the co ...   Linux vs NT   
anhtuan
May 5, 1999, 17:18:27
 
Every corporation that I have worked at  ...   Re: Re: NT Clients the norm? Yes, they are!   
Shannon
May 5, 1999, 17:52:00
 
I think that the whole episode has been  ...   A Job Well Done   
Julian
May 5, 1999, 18:58:27
 
I agree the Samba results were probably  ...   Apache/Linux speed   
Dan Kegel
May 5, 1999, 19:01:22
 
I have done this using a DPT Smart Raid  ...   RE: Can NT system reside no RAID device?   
Kevin Hudson
May 5, 1999, 22:15:37
 
They've obviously been caught, once  ...   MS covering their Butts for COURT   
hedREK
May 5, 1999, 23:46:55
 
First:

Let's pretend we are eating  ...   Ever read the cereal box?   
David B. Jackson
May 6, 1999, 00:01:54
 
Client side NTFS. Win98 clients were pro ...   Re: Mindcraft DID use NTFS!!   
Jeramy Smith
May 6, 1999, 01:22:54
 
My current shop has approximately 1500 c ...   re: NT clients the norm?   
Steve
May 6, 1999, 01:25:40
 
People who can or want to do benchmarks  ...   Re: Re: It's obvious now..   
guidob
May 6, 1999, 06:00:54
 
where have you been??? from another plan ...   Re: Why so much unbelief ?   
totoy
May 6, 1999, 06:11:15
 
When reading Mr. Weiner's remark...
 ...   other configurations   
Jeff Hecker
May 6, 1999, 09:30:55
 
	I would venture to say there are just a ...   Yes NT clients the Norm   
Strider Centaur
May 6, 1999, 10:09:16
 
	So I don't get this, I mean what ab ...   What about Apache on NT?   
Strider Centaur
May 6, 1999, 10:38:42
 
The company I work for, Trintech, uses N ...   random thoughts...   
kevin lyda
May 6, 1999, 11:20:37
 
It seems that MindCraft considers NT is  ...   Re: Linux vs NT   
weicong wang
May 6, 1999, 13:36:37
 
As usual, we find Microsoft using it&#39 ...   Here we go again...   
Henry Case
May 6, 1999, 16:19:04
 
I also work for a large organization wit ...   Re: Re: NT Clients the norm? Yes, they are!   
Jeff Edgington
May 6, 1999, 21:12:00
 
Yes, NT on a Laptop. I'm doing it ev ...   Yes, NT on a Laptop   
David
May 6, 1999, 21:13:19
 
My guess is that they used NTFS througho ...   Re: Re: Mindcraft DID use NTFS!!   
Avi
May 6, 1999, 21:41:01
 
Right, Microsoft officials think there w ...   Re: It's obvious now..   
Neal
May 6, 1999, 23:33:07
 
I agree with you on this with one except ...   Re: Benchmark Suggestion   
jasonwh
May 7, 1999, 15:16:27
 
Alan,

I think we should focus on what t ...   Focus   
Bojan Smojver
May 8, 1999, 06:44:34
 
Yes, I agree I think Mindcraft will have ...   Re: A Job Well Done   
John Alexander
May 8, 1999, 14:40:45
 
I agree with you as well... but, I think ...   Re: NT Clients the norm?   
scott olsson
May 8, 1999, 21:21:37
 
Maybe they were running "extra" stuff on ...   Maybe they really cooked the books   
Artful Doger
May 9, 1999, 05:33:27
 
It is interesting to llok at MS FUD stra ...   Part of FUD Strategy   
Carlos
May 9, 1999, 06:13:44
 
I visited Mindcraft's site, read the ...   Open Source Duped   
Ken O. Burtch
May 9, 1999, 11:13:56
 
Take this for what it's worth from t ...   A need for spokespeople   
Nicholas Donovan
May 10, 1999, 10:34:02
 
Simply this. The entire Linux community  ...   Down to "Crayon" Level   
Nicholas Donovan
May 11, 1999, 09:13:06
 
  
PCWeek took several NOS to the test ( ...   New test by PCWeek, sorry ... NT wins over Linux b   
chuckranger
May 12, 1999, 06:04:47
 
Funny, you don't give your name and  ...   Re: New test by PCWeek, sorry ... NT wins over Lin   
Tom Adelstein
May 12, 1999, 22:34:56
 
I don't know if those figures are co ...   Re: New test by PCWeek, sorry ... NT wins over Lin   
Bojan Smojver
May 13, 1999, 06:35:47
 
"According to the articles I've read ...   Re: Re: Re: Benchmark Suggestion   
Stuart Fox
May 13, 1999, 18:13:57
 
"Can somone help my understanding here?  ...   Re: Re: Mindcraft DID use NTFS!!   
Stuart Fox
May 13, 1999, 18:17:05
 
"FUD is the major MS competition tool(Ca ...   Re: Re: Why so much unbelief ?   
Stuart Fox
May 13, 1999, 18:19:02
 
"Coming to quality, no QA team can match ...   Re: Re:Subject: Why so much unbelief ?   
Stuart Fox
May 13, 1999, 18:20:01
 
Read the article, then make your comment ...   Re: Re: New test by PCWeek, sorry ... NT wins over   
Stuart Fox
May 13, 1999, 18:25:56
 
I agree that Mindcraft's involvement ...   Set up your own neutral comparison   
Mike Trent
May 14, 1999, 00:34:36
 
OK. NT is 1000 (maybe even 1000000) time ...   Re: Re: Re: New test by PCWeek, sorry ... NT wins   
Bojan Smojver
May 14, 1999, 05:56:16
 
The bug complaints to M$ obviously end u ...   Re: Re: Re:Subject: Why so much unbelief ?   
Dr. Wolfgang Otrebski
May 14, 1999, 06:56:42
 
This test is supposed to measure perform ...   NT clients ARE the norm in the enterprise   
Doctor Dave
May 15, 1999, 02:04:56
 
Every quarter  several www monitoring si ...   Re: New test by PCWeek, sorry.. BUT, look at web r   
Jerry Kreps
May 15, 1999, 15:55:19
 
Carlos,
FUD #1: "The black hand", a myst ...   Re: Part of FUD Strategy: facts can defeat it!   
Jerry Kreps
May 15, 1999, 16:17:39
 
". But NT is a piece of -DELETED- and an ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: New test by PCWeek, sorry ... NT w   
Stuart Fox
May 16, 1999, 21:23:46
 
"FUD #3: Mindcraft? A paid lapdog for M$ ...   Re: Re: Part of FUD Strategy: facts can defeat it!   
Stuart Fox
May 16, 1999, 21:25:38
 
. Ever reported a bug to M$? 
Yep

Got a ...   Re: Re: Re: Re:Subject: Why so much unbelief ?   
Stuart Fox
May 16, 1999, 21:28:12
 
You bet it's an opinion! And it' ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New test by PCWeek, sorry ...   
Bojan Smojver
May 16, 1999, 22:27:43
 
Hello,
Well as I have been saying M$ is  ...   MS=FUD   
Thomas Wickline
May 17, 1999, 02:14:43
 
Then you're all an incompetent bunch ...   Re: NT clients? hell yes!   
Magnus
May 19, 1999, 04:38:36
 
The truth of the matter is that mindcraf ...   The truth of the matter   
Tim Keller
May 20, 1999, 12:28:39
 
Stuart,

I told my boss that NT was a pi ...   Stuart Fox: nt   
tim dion
May 20, 1999, 13:58:33
 
I suspect that the benchmark was origina ...   Linux tests   
Chris Olivier
May 20, 1999, 23:03:33
 
Lets face it Micro$oft are scared.

They ...   Linux V NT   
Ian Reason
May 21, 1999, 19:17:17
 
Lets assume NT really is faster than Lin ...   Okay, lets assume its true   
Izak Burger
May 22, 1999, 06:59:02
 
"To be 100% honest, I think Microsoft mo ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New test by PCWeek, sorry   
Pete Simpson
May 22, 1999, 19:42:25
 
His point is that NT clients are NTFS ba ...   Re: NT Clients the norm?   
Sanity
May 23, 1999, 07:44:19
 
"Maybe you can tell me why my home NT sy ...   Re: Stuart Fox: nt   
Stuart Fox
May 23, 1999, 18:47:49
 

By this statement, in the report, does  ...   Kernel limited itself to use 960MB RAM   
Anil Patel
May 24, 1999, 17:42:10
 
we are all very competitive here, aren&# ...   conduct fair test   
john
May 27, 1999, 09:39:44
 
No Stuart, suppressing the bad results d ...   Re: Re: Re: Part of FUD Strategy: facts can defeat   
Kelly Evanson
May 27, 1999, 16:27:19
 
I'm sure if they let a guru setup th ...   Re: New test by PCWeek, sorry ... NT wins over Lin   
Chris
Jun 1, 1999, 02:56:46
 
I think it would be best if we just igno ...   Re: Set up your own neutral comparison   
Chris
Jun 1, 1999, 03:05:57
 
Maybe they should do a benchmark with
1. ...   NT vs Linux   
Chris
Jun 1, 1999, 06:44:11
 
Nowadays all reports about benchmarks, s ...   Re: The truth of the matter   
Roman Fietze
Jun 9, 1999, 05:18:28
 
Because of the Dutch way of doing busine ...   MindCraft???? US Company??   
Jacco
Jun 16, 1999, 09:37:17
 
I wonder what is going on.
Reading c&#39 ...   Mindcraft and c't AND M$   
Bjarne Nygaard
Aug 3, 1999, 14:07:31
 
An English version of the c't-articl ...   Re: Mindcraft and c't AND M$   
Tilman Ahr
Aug 3, 1999, 19:19:05
 
I Think Microsoft should see Linux as a  ...   Mindcraft n MS   
Nick Fleming
Oct 10, 1999, 19:37:52
 
After reading the posts on this board, I ...   Weak Arguments   
Aaron Guilmette
Dec 23, 1999, 00:24:44
 
Does anyone have any statistics about th ...   use of apache and windows   
carlos barbieri
Oct 8, 2001, 17:11:30
 
i want to know all about linux pluses an ...   Re: Linux vs NT   
rachmad
Nov 25, 2004, 15:37:50
 
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